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#systemd#init#launchd

Benno Rice: The Tragedy of systemd -- BSDCan 2018

BSDCan

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  • Recommended by 5 people: 4 on Hacker News and 1 on Lobsters.
  • Presented by Benno Rice
  • An opinion. It argues one side of a question engineers disagree on.

Intermediate. Assumes working knowledge.

25K views8 years ago5 recommendations

Systems programmingOperating systemsLinux

Benno Rice explores the history of Unix init systems, explaining why systemd was created and what BSD can learn from it.

systemd is, to put it mildly, controversial. Depending on who you ask it's either a complete violation of the UNIX philosophy, a bloated pile of bugs, a complete violation of the elegant simplicity it replaced or, it most cases, some or all of the above. So why have so many Linux distributions taken to it? Is it as bad as people say? Are the BSD projects right to be avoiding it? Let's look into the history of UNIX userland bootstrapping and the factors that lead to the creation of systemd, why it's turned out the way it has, and what there is to be learned from it. Clickbaity title ahoy! This talk is about why something like systemd came to be. It looks into the history of system bootstrap over various UNIXes (and others), then looks at macOS and launchd before drawing direct parallels from launchd (and its cohorts) to systemd. From there it looks at why the ideas behind systemd are largely beneficial and the things it does better than what came before it, including the notion that "service management" is an underdeveloped concept on a lot of UNIXy systems and that it extends well beyond bootstrap to the entire system lifecycle. Then, in order to bring it all back down to earth, the talk discusses what systemd gets wrong before moving on to the actual tragedy of the piece: That the people behind systemd seem largely ill-equipped to manage the social aspect of the level of change they're pushing and that this could sour large groups of people on the entire idea of something like systemd. It ends with a discussion of how FreeBSD (or other BSDs) could implement the ideas behind systemd in better ways. bsdcan.org/2018/schedule/events/927.en.html

Why it's here

5 people recommend this

What people say. Recommended as a balanced, insightful talk that explains the technical necessity of systemd despite its controversies.

calvinon Lobsters • Recommends

The Tragedy of systemd

ernst_klimon Hacker News • Recommends

On “BSDs or Illumos may be good alternatives to Linux (2017)”

>Personally, I never found startup time to be much of a problem, on any OS. Well, start up problem is a matter of convenience, it's not a fatal problem, but I just like that my laptop with arch+systemd+systemd-boot starts instantly (3 seconds + 6 seconds for firmware), while bsd on my other laptop starts soo damn slow. (btw slow shutdown pisses me off even more) Though the real issues with rc are much more serious, and eloquently described here (aka you don't have proper login management, service management, device and policy management, and better in a unified way): link to this video

sjwrighton Hacker News • Recommends

On “Linux distros without systemd”

One of the better videos on this subject: link to this video BSDCan 2018—Benno Rice: The Tragedy of systemd "systemd is, to put it mildly, controversial. Depending on who you ask it's either a complete violation of the UNIX philosophy, a bloated pile of bugs, a complete violation of the elegant simplicity it replaced or, it most cases, some or all of the above. So why have so many Linux distributions taken to it? Is it as bad as people say?

znpyon Hacker News • Recommends

On “Knoppix 8.6 abandons systemd”

A nice talk that might change your view of the subject is the following: link to this video . It's a video from BSDCan, the Canadian BSD conference. Even some BSD people are realizing that systemd has a good point to exist!

kbumsikon Hacker News • Recommends

On “Why Did ArchLinux Embrace Systemd? (2016)”

> After listening to the BSD Canada talk on systemd and BSD For someone who don't know, here is the video "The tragedy of systemd". This is a really good talk. link to this video

pxcon Hacker News • Mentions

On “Systemd, 10 years later: a historical and technical retrospective (2020)”

> Tacitly: most people don’t like launchd, but they don’t interact with it either. Find me a person who writes or debugs launchd plists and you’ll find that: > ... > 2. they don’t like launchd This is true in my case, although the main thing on my mind when I work with launchd my main complaint often boils down to 'I wish this were more like systemd'. IME, systemd has much nicer CLIs, more capabilities, clearer and more comprehensive documentation, more abundant examples, and more conveniences/less privileges required for per-user stuff. The simple INI format for systemd units is also a lot easier and nicer to deal with than the XML format that plists use, even though there's a lot of tool…