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#wayland#x11#x.org

The real story behind Wayland and X

Linux.conf.au 2013 -- Canberra, Australia

1K subscribers • 2 videos on Hallway

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  • Recommended by 4 people: 4 on Hacker News.
  • Presented by Daniel Stone, X.Org developer

Intermediate. Assumes working knowledge.

46K views11 years ago4 recommendations

Systems programmingGraphics and audioOperating systemsLinuxRendering

Daniel Stone explains the history, architectural limitations, and performance bottlenecks of the X Window System and why Wayland was created.

Presenter(s): Daniel Stone URL: lca2013.linux.org.au/schedule/30256/view_talk (Or, 'Why Everything You've Read in LWN and Phoronix Comments is Untrue'.) Wayland is possibly the most impressive free software project to date in terms of the amount of controversy generated to the number of people who've actually ever used it. The X Window System has served UNIX and its derivatives admirably for longer than the presenter has been alive. Born in the age of monochrome displays, X's extensibility has allowed it to be dragged kicking and screaming into the twenty-first century. But this extensibility has come at a cost: the average X server now has at least two wholly unused rendering models, four input stacks, four display management extensions, et al. Not only that, but the internal design and implementation of the X server (which could generously be described as 'awful') is a serious hinderance to achieving anything. One thing as constant as X's dominance is new rival window systems which aim to replace it. DirectFB, Berlin/Fresco, QWS, the Y Window System and more, have all aimed at one time or another to unseat X, and failed. But over the past few years, since the revival of X under the X.Org banner, a great deal of its development has been directed at making it easier for others to replace X. The ongoing development of DRM/KMS, Mesa/EGL, libpciaccess, libxkbcommon and others, has actually made it practical to build a competing window system for the first time. So where do we stand now? What are the actual benefits and downsides of each? (If you said that X's network transparency is a benefit, please come see this to hear about how that's totally wrong.) Does X's extension model really mean it'll live to see 50? Will Wayland replace X next week? This talk will try to explain the design of both X and Wayland, how they actually operate in practice (which is often totally unrelated to the design), and how they actually differ. If time allows, there might well be bonus information, speculation and pontification on the future development of each. This will hopefully be rounded off with the obligatory demo of the true mark of a useful and complete window system: semi-transparent rotated windows. lca2013.linux.org.au/ - linux.org.au CC BY-SA - creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode.txt

Why it's here

4 people recommend this

What people say. Highly recommended for understanding the technical flaws of X11 and the design motivations behind Wayland.

SXXon Hacker News • Recommends

On “Xplain – Explaining X11 for the rest of us (2017)”

Really recommend that speech as well since it's give good understanding what's wrong with X11 and why Wayland was created. The real story behind Wayland and X: link to this video

sergeykishon Hacker News • Recommends

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

This criticism looks like "free as beer and I know better". 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit 2. That new thing can have some help too I recommend developers story about this "mostly working thing" (2014) 1. It is quite fun and eye opening, he clearly knows his subject better than most of the comments. Wayland demo worked almost from day one. I've run it in 2010 2. But we need applications, that is migrating toolkits and this took 10 years. It is very toxic development culture, cancel culture, mob. 1 link to this video 2 link

sergeykishon Hacker News • Recommends

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

It would be nice to reproduce phoronix results. Do they run in GNOME shell? What if I run in Sway? What exactly they expect of Selenium? I've heard gedit startup example. Sorry, I can't continue until you've watched presentation 1 > gedit startup: > 130 blocking InternAtom calls > 34 blocking GetProperty calls > 116 property change requests > blocking because Xlib is terrible > usually spends 25ms waiting for requests > sometimes spends 1428ms 1 link to this video

sergeykishon Hacker News • Recommends

On “On Abandoning the X Server”

Daniel Stone, The real story behind Wayland and X (Or, 'Why Everything You've Read in LWN and Phoronix Comments is Untrue') link to this video And directly from ajaxnwnk link > Moreover, X works for me now and does everything I need. Someone makes pig fly all these years.

kaba0on Hacker News • Recommends

On “HW accelerated Xwayland rendering for Nvidia merged”

Well, you can imagine some evil behind everything if you wish.. Or just look at a technical video about it: link to this video I don’t see these conteos regarding linux, especially goddamn desktop with the minuscule user share. It is literally a hobby thing for some graphics enthusiasts without any sort of money. Yeah sure, red hat or whatever..

vetinarion Hacker News • Recommends

On “X12”

> I've seen commentary from people who have worked intimately on both protocols and implementations of both who consider Wayland to have the better architecture. For those interested in details: link to this video

emersionon Hacker News • Mentions

On “On the Road to Pure Go X11 GUIs”

…nd, the choice was easy. Keep in mind that Wayland has been designed by people who've been maintaining X11 for years. >it also offers no mode that would work over a network X11 has a huge number of issues when it comes to network transparency. tl;dr is: it's not designed for this, you should use a proper remote desktop protocol instead. More info: link to this video >Of that, EGL even requires Mesa and thus Cgo. That's not true anymore. You can use the DMA-BUF protocol instead of wl_drm. I'm not sure how to export a DMA-BUF without Cgo though… But that's a different issue. If you're going to use the GPU you'll probably need Cgo anyway.…

DyslexicAtheiston Hacker News • Mentions

On “Xubuntu 19.04: The Exhaustive Update”

last time I used kde was in 2002. I loved especially kmail and konqueror. Though I have eventually been turned off by the dependency hell of big DE's (not unique to kde and probably only an issue if you compile the DE yourself, ... though also annoying if you have 100+ base-packages/dependencies pulled in just because you want 1 tool). after moving to i3 I find it hard to look back. the level of customization I can do with a tiling WM (also dwm, xmonad etc) is just insane. Makes more sense to me since most of the tools I use are lightweight, e.g. suckless (surf), a complete process tree after login now consists of: ?─┬─?───i3-wrapper───i3 ├─sh───xautolock ├─sh───unclutter ├─sh───dunst───2*[{…

Zrenon Hacker News • Mentions

On “Red Hat Expecting X.org to “Go into Hard Maintenance Mode Fairly Quickly””

After watching link to this video At 18m30, he mentions that everyone uses SHM and DRI2, which don't work over the network. He mentions X isn't "network transparent" anymore, it's "network capable". I'm not 100% sure what the difference is tbh. At 40m10, he mentions that rendering on the "server" then compressing it to transfer over the network to display locally is basically VNC.

sergeykishon Hacker News • Mentions

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

But why? X11 works. I've tried wayland in 2010, second time today. If anything today's story shows that developers do not want to work on X11 and how much we depend on Red Hat. X11 problems explained by Daniel Stone 1. As I understand there are two parallel architectures, one uses X11 server primitives (xfontsel), another renders on client (fontconfig fc-list etc). It is very confusing. 1 link to this video

sergeykishon Hacker News • Mentions

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

Protocol limits what is possible. Legacy defines performance. Gnome is X11 first. Wlroots in Wayland first. It should be possible to optimize Gnome. Wayland was created because of horrible X11 performance 1. It is not Waylands prime time yet but X.Org still works and maintained. Phoronix.com should have checked contributions 2. 1 link to this video 2 link

sergeykishon Hacker News • Mentions

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

link I've described context. You've confirmed it. Statement supported not by fact but by inner voice. My morale stems from Christianity, I believe Enlightenment got it right — discovery of nature is discovery of God. I've been to church, I've seen priest who shared joy. I've seen other priests, I would rather not see them. X.Org developer described what's wrong with the project 1. Not one of the Wayland critiques addressed his points. They have no facts, they just want it to fail. Those who work hard and share for free get anger in return. Sway / wlroots maintainer (ddevault) got off the edge from this misinformation and I do not agree with him but I am not maintainer either. Where is lo…

sergeykishon Hacker News • Mentions

On “The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?”

Please address 1 or you don't know what you are talking about. Similar point in next post 2. 1 link to this video 2 link

dralleyon Hacker News • Mentions

On “On Abandoning the X Server”

> I have an opposite view. All I can say is that nearly every single one of the former core Xorg developers has said precisely the opposite (sometimes in literal terms 0 1), and has switched to developing Wayland. 0 link to this video 1 link > In Plasma we need Wayland support as we are hitting the limitations of X all the time. Wayland will simplify our architecture and allow us to composite the screen in the way we consider as most useful.

ironmagmaon Hacker News • Mentions

On “A peculiarity of the X Window System: Windows all the way down”

'Programming X is like reading one of those French philosophers where afterwards you start wondering whether you really know anything for sure.' 1 1 Thomas Thurman - link to this video link